Athena, Clydesdale and Novice divisions--why?

yep, and once in awhile it isn't a young stud. I think that's logical.
let me test yours:
I'm a 40 yr female. Last spring I ran a marathon. I was 20th person to cross the line. 5th female overall, 1st master female, 1st female in the 40-44 age group. How many awards do I get? If not all, which one? and lastly---did my time change?

Well sue, I think you're only a half step away from no gender awards. How many people would be okay with a woman never winning an event?

they usually only win in women only events. Usually a man crosses the tape first. Because the RD gender categorizes male/female does that change the results any? no.
I don't like your attitude with a "woman never winning an event?". I won a 10k two weeks ago. :banana:
The reality is the person that crosses the line first wins....regardless of age or gender. In some races they'll put another ribbon across the line for the woman. But generally, there is either one person or two persons breaking the tape. period.
the race director can recognize any category he feels like. The only way he can manipulate who the winner is by a 'Portsmouth" start. (giving the handicapped a head start).

The slower runners amongst us, Sue. And as you've seen me run, you know I count myself in that.

I'm sorry Sue, but it's true. There will pretty much always be an exception, but I have never seen a woman win outright. I've been looking at local race results for years, and I've never seen a woman come close. And then, that's just local races where competition isn't so great. In an elite race, how many women beat the men? I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just saying based on records and results, men are faster than women.

The slower runners amongst us, Sue. And as you've seen me run, you know I count myself in that.
by handicapped, I mean like a golf handicap. And it really isn't the slower runners first--or everyone would cross the line at the same time. It's "perceived slowness" based on gender/age

I'm sorry Sue, but it's true. There will pretty much always be an exception, but I have never seen a woman win outright. I've been looking at local race results for years, and I've never seen a woman come close. And then, that's just local races where competition isn't so great. In an elite race, how many women beat the men? I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just saying based on records and results, men are faster than women.
but, but, I thought the argument "was" the nonelite races and that is why everyone said I couldn't compare running to pro football.
I'm not arguing men vs women. I'm just saying the person that hits the tape first is the winner. Everyone else is not. However most people will recognize the first female even if she doesn't cross the tape first.

You said you didn't like my attitude, so I was defending why I said that.

I'll let you know next time I see a woman win something, instead of being rewarded for a lesser performance (like a first overall female).

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In fact, if Sue ran one of the local 5ks in your area, she would very likely be the overall winner.
As would some of the top women from Denver, Boulder, Colorado Springs, and western Oregon/Washington.
My point is that women do win first place overall in coed events probably far more often than you think.

I've participated in 50+ road races of various lengths & sizes in the last 10 years. I've never seen a single female (overall) winner. I would say Sue (or any other woman) winning a race outright is the very lone exception, not the rule. :twocents:

This is insulting. This thread was started as a result of my posting that I came in 2nd Athena in my triathlon last week. I assume this because it was started 24 hours after my race report. But the above assumptions are incorrect.
I was once fat. VERY fat. I have worked hard to drop the weight. I'm not all the way there yet, but would not be considered fat by any yardstick measurement, nor by any person. People routinely underguess my weight by at least 30 pounds. I am not embarrassed to say that I am in the Athena category, weighing over 140 pounds. This despite being 5'7" and a size 8. All my clothes are size small or medium, and I sometimes get away with wearing junior clothes. When I started running I was 225 and to be so far from that in and of itself is an accomplishment.
I also do not run 20mpw. Try 55-65mpw, on top of biking, swimming, and lifting. I was genetically cursed, and will never be fast or tiny. Even if I dropped to an unhealthy 110 pounds I wouldn't be - though the only way I could get there would be to lop off my chest, shoulders, and treetrunk-like marathoner quads.
I resent the implication that not being small, short, and fast makes me and those like me less of an athlete, i.e. a "putz". I put in a lot of hours, and train very hard. I've also been called extremely competitive. It doesn't bother me that there are people here who get more hardware than me on less training. If they can do that, good for them. I can't, I know it, so I work that much harder to be the best athlete I can be, as defined by me. I find it ironic that my decision to choose a division where I might place has created such controversy. No one has EVER questioned the validity of an AG award in a super small race, though. My first tri I got 3rd place in my AG, because my AG was small. I got 2nd in my AG at a local 5K, but there were <65 runners. I will never place, I mean EVER, in the majority of races I do. The average race I do has 2,000 runners. So when I place, I find it hysterical. Especially because I don't need someone else, or a piece of hardware, to validate me as a runner or prove to me how far I've come since day one: I do that for myself.
And yes, women do win things. But it's not always equal. Case in point: our friend Heather May, she of the Olympic Trials. Better than your average runner. Last year she ran, and was first female, in the Manhattan Half. I saw her run past me, twice, like a bolt of lightning. She came in 63rd overall. Talk about inequality, knowing that she got beat by some poor schmo who just guts out a low mileage week out in Washington Heights. Sure a great runner - woman, old, bigger, or otherwise - can win and routinely place, but obviously not at every race. The Athena and Clydesdale divisions offer another option to those who know they won't AG. I'm happy to be able to compete in those categories with runners whose builds are more like mine - for after marathon season, I'll most likely weigh too little and will instead run against the teeny tiny women. What a mistake it is to assume that those who make the decision to race in those categories are fat, lazy, or "putzes", especially knowing they will not take anything away from another runner.
And now, onto a 10 day beach vacation where I shall run high mileage for a race-heavy fall where I will win nothing but personal glory ....

This is insulting. This thread was started as a result of my posting that I came in 2nd Athena in my triathlon last week.
It's not always about you. Really.
184 miles / 4.5 weeks in July = 41 MPW avg.
Brings my weekly mileage to 50.3, most since April 2003.

I've participated in 50+ road races of various lengths & sizes in the last 10 years. I've never seen a single female (overall) winner. I would say Sue (or any other woman) winning a race outright is the very lone exception, not the rule. :twocents: I said "far more often than you think". I didn't say it was the rule. Just because you and MechEngDropout have yet to witness it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. :twocents:

You would be surprised about how many online running forum members don't give a c**p about you, your training techniques, or your race performances.
Sue didn't single you out. Neither did PH in his other thread.
Get over yourself.
This is a valid thread and a valid discussion. And you never crossed my mind until you made your reply.

elkid-

1. I had no idea about your recent race. My opinion has never had anything to do with you. My opinion is that I think weight classes are stupid in endurance sports. But now that I know that you entered as "Athena" why? If not for the hardware, what could possibly be the reason? Afterall, most triathlons that I've spectated, have wave starts and you can't possibly know who you are competing against until all results are tallied up.

2. Sonny made a reference that if he gained 5 pounds he could be clydesdale. If anything, this is what "set me off". A person willing to slow down to do better in a different division. It just goes against what I believe in. I believe that you do the best can with what is given to you. I used to run with a guy that did just that. He is one of the best masters male clydesdales in Texas. Good for him, except that on my best day, I couldn't touch him when he was slimmer. He's winning hardware, but he is NOT a better runner.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how my 20 mpw fat putz......would have been in reference to you when none apply??????