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easy on the sarcasm people.
My bad. Seriously now. On the one side...let's say you are a minority kid going to an inner city school. You only have one parent in the house (section 8 housing) and all of the men around you are drug dealers. You want to make a better life for yourself, so you work and you study hard at school. However, since you go to a public school in the city, you don't have access to many of the things that kids from the suburbs have. Your teachers are probably not the best and the brightest (they go to the suburbs), your classes are overcrowded, you don't have any sort of art/music classes available. Now you go up against a kid from the suburbs to take the SAT. Is that a fair playing field? On the other hand...I have a friend that I recently made...a fellow grad student that really enlightened me. She is white and from a very poor rural area. She grew up with her mom who had some serious metal problems who kicked her out when she was 13 so she had to go live with her dad who is a drug dealer. Despite this she made the choice early on that she was going to make something of herself. She applied herself in school and ended up getting a full scholarship to a very exclusive liberal arts college. In our conversation she said that everyone has a choice, the just have to make it. Thus here are the two arguements that I hear...and I hear a lot being in higher education.
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I seriously doube I've had any advantages because I'm white... ...I honestly believe that there is no place for Affirmative Action, I just don't.
I don't mean to pick on you but you might have a different perspective if you spent some time with a Sri Lankan refugee who has escaped his civil war torn country to come to North America in hopes of giving his children an chance to live. Or a Congolese immigrant who had to escape his country, leaving his family behind and having no way of knowing whether they're dead or alive. What about a Columbian University student who's mother and father have to face the threat of being killed by their own government every day and have given her everything they have so she can start a new life in Canada. I'm not suggesting that you feel guilty for how good we have it here. And maybe saying you have had unfair advantages isn't exactly what I mean. You have to acknowledge that you have had certain unearned advantages just by being born in a certain part of the world. And you also enjoy unearned advantages every day that these friends of mine don't have simply because of the way they look, the language they speak or the passport they inherited. I'm not sure I'll ever fully understand the type of unearned hardships they have faced in their native countries or the kind of unearned discrimination they face in my native country. I do know that I would never begrudge them any advantage I could offer (even though they would never ask for me to sacrifice) if it helps them find some redemption in a world that has offered nothing but injustice. I'll get off my soap box and go to bed now. :wavey:
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What about a Colombian University student who's mother and father have to face the threat of being killed by their own government every day and have given her everything they have so she can start a new life in Canada.
My parents did that. Here in America. Just so we could have an education. They never once expected a handout, nor did we ever get one. My mother, with three kids, learned English here and finished her high school here and went to college. They showed up in this country with a $300. Left EVERYTHING behind. We did it without affirmative action and handouts. It can be done.
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My parents did that. Here in America. Just so we could have an education. They never once expected a handout, nor did we ever get one. My mother, with three kids, learned English here and finished her high school here and went to college. They showed up in this country with a $300. Left EVERYTHING behind. We did it without affirmative action and handouts. It can be done.
Aire, I do not for one minute believe that it can't be done. And I hope you don't think that's the point behind what I'm saying. I think people just need to recognize the tremendous blessings they have and be willing to share those blessings rather than think they are their rightful inheritance. I believe the world would be a better place if we took our heads out of our individualistic society and thought about how to be a blessing to the people around us. It would be nice to live in a world where loving your fellow humanity didn't get misinterpreted as giving out handouts. Your success story is wonderful to hear. Unfortuantely, there are many stories of people who move to our countries that don't end in success. Is that just because all those people haven't worked hard enough? I have known too many of these situations to know that's not the case.
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My parents did that. Here in America. Just so we could have an education. They never once expected a handout, nor did we ever get one. My mother, with three kids, learned English here and finished her high school here and went to college. They showed up in this country with a $300. Left EVERYTHING behind. We did it without affirmative action and handouts. It can be done.
but what "if" your parent didn't care about furthering your education? Motivation is a big factor. My parents worked hard in a small town and didn't take handouts, but not only didn't they encourage college, they seemed dead set against it. You got nurturing and confidence at home that you "could do it". I can remember my parents telling my brother that "you can't do it, you're not college material" when he was offered a track scholarship. My husband grew up under divorce of an alcoholic dad and whacked mom. He lived with grandparents and by 16 lived across the street where a farmer took him in. He did farm chores for room and board. He is a very successful person, but even he will mention the people along the way that guided and encouraged him, from the farmer, his teachers, his professors, etc....... My home appeared stable, but I didn't play an instrument because "you'll quit", sports weren't encouraged "you'll quit" college? "girls don't need to go, you'll quit and get married like your sisters". But what I did have was a 5th grade teacher that whispered to me, you need to go to college, you'll find a way. I actually remember my mother being angry with this teacher for "putting ideas" in my head. My older sisters that didn't go to college worked hard too, but they weren't singled out by the school to push the issue because they were "average" students. They all returned to school once they were married and had spouses to boost their self-esteem. I wonder how many inner city moms have someone to make them "believe"
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I don't mean to pick on you but
sure you do.... and no, I don't have unearned advantages. I've earned everything I hve. My parents have earned everything they have. And so had their parents. And i don't feel that i owe it to anyone to give anything to anyone so they can have somehhing better, unless I want to give it to them. I don't feel that me being slighted for the greater good of the minority is insignificant. that is just the way I feel. If we do those things here, then we are no better than the people in Sri Lanka, or Congolese (sp?) or the other places you mentioned. You are right that I don't know how it feels to be those people, nor do I really want to know how it feels to be those people. I just want to continue being me, working for what i have, earning what I have, and getting to keep what I earn. Sleep well.
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I believe the world would be a better place if we took our heads out of our individualistic society and thought about how to be a blessing to the people around us. It would be nice to live in a world where loving your fellow humanity didn't get misinterpreted as giving out handouts.
This is true.... It would be nice if it could be by choice, though.... Affirmative action is not choice, it is discrimination.
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I'm not suggesting that you feel guilty for how good we have it here. And maybe saying you have had unfair advantages isn't exactly what I mean. You have to acknowledge that you have had certain unearned advantages just by being born in a certain part of the world. And you also enjoy unearned advantages every day that these friends of mine don't have simply because of the way they look, the language they speak or the passport they inherited. I'm not sure I'll ever fully understand the type of unearned hardships they have faced in their native countries or the kind of unearned discrimination they face in my native country. I do know that I would never begrudge them any advantage I could offer (even though they would never ask for me to sacrifice) if it helps them find some redemption in a world that has offered nothing but injustice. I'll get off my soap box and go to bed now. :wavey:
I believe these "unearned advantages" of which you speak were earned thru the sweat, hard labor, foresight and vision of the great men and women who built this country. Maybe the unearned advantages I enjoy as a middle class white boy were earned by my father who grew up dirt poor in NYC and busted his friggin' ass to put himself thru school. Oh yeah, and my mother who worked two jobs to pay the bills and keep a household running while the old man went to school to make something of himself. Oh yeah again, and my dad WORKED during the majority of the time he went to college. It's such a novel concept - working one's ass off to become successful and to provide opportunity for one's offspring. Maybe its not a completely level playing field but the opportunity to become successful is greater in the good ol' U.S. of A. than anywhere else in my opinion if you are willing to put in the effort.
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I believe these "unearned advantages" of which you speak were earned thru the sweat, hard labor, foresight and vision of the great men and women who built this country. Maybe the unearned advantages I enjoy as a middle class white boy were earned by my father who grew up dirt poor in NYC and busted his friggin' ass to put himself thru school. Oh yeah, and my mother who worked two jobs to pay the bills and keep a household running while the old man went to school to make something of himself. Oh yeah again, and my dad WORKED during the majority of the time he went to college. It's such a novel concept - working one's ass off to become successful and to provide opportunity for one's offspring. Maybe its not a completely level playing field but the opportunity to become successful is greater in the good ol' U.S. of A. than anywhere else in my opinion if you are willing to put in the effort.
Exactly my point Rob, what kind of stewards will we be of the advantages previous generations have earned for us. Will we keep it to ourselves or try to share them with others? Will we continue to build a society that tries to make sure future generations of humanity have even greater advantages?
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Exactly my point Rob, what kind of stewards will we be of the advantages previous generations have earned for us. Will we keep it to ourselves or try to share them with others? Will we continue to build a society that tries to make sure future generations of humanity have even greater advantages?
The opportunity is still there for any kid in this country to do something for themself. More opportunity than ever most likely. It's still up to the individual to get off their duff and do something and not expect it to be handed to them. It's not up to us to provide future generations with greater advantages but to give them the opportunity to develop them on their own. It's kind of like giving a group of kids a pile of lincoln logs. Some kids are gonna cry and want mommy or daddy to build them something. Another kid might build something for himself, it might not be pretty but he's going in the right direction. And then there is always the kid who knows what he/she wants to build but isn't exactly sure how to do it. So, they seek help (knowledge) and that knowledge they acquire allows them to build exactly what they had envisioned.
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sure you do.... and no, I don't have unearned advantages. I've earned everything I hve. My parents have earned everything they have. And so had their parents.
Do you believe that you personally don't have any unearned avantages, or that white people as a whole don't have those advantages?
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The opportunity is still there for any kid in this country to do something for themself. More opportunity than ever most likely. It's still up to the individual to get off their duff and do something and not expect it to be handed to them. It's not up to us to provide future generations with greater advantages but to give them the opportunity to develop them on their own. It's kind of like giving a group of kids a pile of lincoln logs. Some kids are gonna cry and want mommy or daddy to build them something. Another kid might build something for himself, it might not be pretty but he's going in the right direction. And then there is always the kid who knows what he/she wants to build but isn't exactly sure how to do it. So, they seek help (knowledge) and that knowledge they acquire allows them to build exactly what they had envisioned.
I'm guessing there might be a child that wants to burn the lincoln logs, like pappy
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Do you believe that you personally don't have any unearned avantages, or that white people as a whole don't have those advantages?
maybe someone like Paris hilton has an advantage, but in general, i don't think white people are all that advantaged. Not in this day and time.
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My bad. Seriously now. On the one side...let's say you are a minority kid going to an inner city school. You only have one parent in the house (section 8 housing) and all of the men around you are drug dealers. You want to make a better life for yourself, so you work and you study hard at school. However, since you go to a public school in the city, you don't have access to many of the things that kids from the suburbs have. Your teachers are probably not the best and the brightest (they go to the suburbs), your classes are overcrowded, you don't have any sort of art/music classes available. Now you go up against a kid from the suburbs to take the SAT. Is that a fair playing field? On the other hand...I have a friend that I recently made...a fellow grad student that really enlightened me. She is white and from a very poor rural area. She grew up with her mom who had some serious metal problems who kicked her out when she was 13 so she had to go live with her dad who is a drug dealer. Despite this she made the choice early on that she was going to make something of herself. She applied herself in school and ended up getting a full scholarship to a very exclusive liberal arts college. In our conversation she said that everyone has a choice, the just have to make it. Thus here are the two arguements that I hear...and I hear a lot being in higher education.
You know, I see your point on this but I must say that I don't care where you are from, if you want to make something out of yourself you can. I guess the problem lies with "wanting" to make something of yourself. My brother and sister could have been stars in their respective fields but they allowed the "don't wanna do nuttin" attitude of our rural small town to affect the way they lived. I was considered the "black sheep" in the family because I moved away from home...and even *gasp* out of state. But, I had a desire for more. I wanted my future to have a different ending than most of the people I lived near. You hear "ghetto stories" all the time where people leave the ghetto and make something of themselves. Let's talk Oprah for a minute. So, it's not that they can't do it or don't have the opportunity to do it but most just don't care to do it because the "don't care" attitude is all around them.
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My parents did that. Here in America. Just so we could have an education. They never once expected a handout, nor did we ever get one. My mother, with three kids, learned English here and finished her high school here and went to college. They showed up in this country with a $300. Left EVERYTHING behind. We did it without affirmative action and handouts. It can be done.
Thus supporting my last post.
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