Wow. Driving from London, Ontario every single day to the clinic. Unbelievable. Yet still in the end, you weren't fully cured. Speaking of commitment, I also visited the clinic almost everyday for the first 7 months or so. After that, I was just completely worn out by their lies and assurance that I'll get cured.
Speaking of Dr. Chen(or Chan?), he seems like the only good "doctor" and person at the NATCM clinic in Markham. A positive side of him is that he genuinely seems to care, and is very confident with the clinics medicine.
Regarding your bleeding issue. I would take that any day of the week, anytime of the day, any calling of nature, than having prolapsed hemorrhoids. Let me repeat this again, I have prolapsed hemorrhoids, and to be blunt and straight to the point; my as****e literally comes out. If I stand for too long or move around too much, they come out. I need to physically push them back in to feel somewhat sane. You have no idea how uncomfortable and terrible it is to have prolapsed hemorrhoids. Especially when they come out all the time. It will become a worm in your head, nagging you, weighing you down, making you feel incomplete. The worst condition you can experience with prolapsed hemorrhoids is when you have a fissure, or anal itch. At this point, you just want to end it all.
About the real doctors, I will soon be having rubber band ligation treatments and will go from there. From the sound of your case, your issue doesn't seem bad, at all. Your issue doesn't seem bad at all to even think about having surgery down there. Now when your butt starts coming out, then look at that horizon.
How is your diet by the way? Make sure you at least consume 20 grams of fiber everyday. Fiber only works with water so make sure you drink a lot too. Smooth stools is the cure for a bleeding anus. Trust me, I've experienced it all, and yes I used to bleed down there a long time ago.
Yeah it's a damn shame that many people deal with hemorrhoids and no real easy cure exists. But this is what happens when you don't treat your body with respect. My hemorrhoid story began when I got my first job; Mcdonald's.
Hi Guest,
I have hemmroids it's bother me so much. I live in edmonton here
Can i have a treatment for this
Thanks
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Hi,
I thought I would share my experiences with NATCM at the Markham, Toronto clinic. This review turned into a long essay so if you want to skip to the SUMMARY at the bottom then feel free.
BACKGROUND:
Suffering from a stage 3 prolapsed hem for nearly 10 years hoping that it would somehow go away on it's own. I had experienced a brief period of a small external thrombosed hem that really hurt even more that the stage 3 prolapse. The external hem seemed to subside after a week or two. I also had a large skin tag around the anal tissue that did not give me any pain or discomfort but would have preferred not to have it.
The hem would prolapse during bowel movements, exercise and often when just being out and about. I dealt with it by taking frequent trips to the bathroom simply to push the sucker back in. While this is nowhere near as severe as other people, it is still extremely uncomfortable and painful. It just affects your whole life, everything you do you have to take into account how your ass is going to act up, where is the next bathroom etc.
All the creams etc seemed to relieve the pain and swelling but only very short term. After a few years of neglect, it started bleeding and it was a wake up call that it was only going to get worse.
First, I tried rubber band litigation which hurt like nothing I have ever known. I guess the hem fell off after a few days or a week. In either case, it seemed to fix the problem and I thought I was free of suffering.
You all know what happens next, after a while it came back as big and bad as before. Again, I tried to deal with it but it came to the point where it was affecting everything in my life and bleeding every time you go to the bathroom is as you know a terrible experience.
I researched to try to find a real long term solution and was at the point where I was willing to try nearly anything to avoid going into surgery to get it cut out. My doc said I had multiple internal hems and that surgery is my only option but he doesn't recommend it!
So scouring the web I found these NATCM forum threads. It seems to be the only clinic out there that has claims of curing these issues and also has many independent reviews.
I was extremely skeptical about NATCM obviously, guaranteed results with only ointments and creams...I read every review I could and was still 50/50 but decided to contact NATCM and get further info.
So about a year ago I called them up and they asked to take a photo of my prolapse hem and send it through to Dr Chen.
I sent it over and he replied stating that he could cure the condition, it would take around 2 weeks and $1500-1700.
I live in the US so I would have to fly over, spend $1000s on living expenses and take 2 weeks off work. (When I go there they quoted around $2000 due to the multiple hems and polyps but I negotiated it down to $1700 based on the above.)
So I had the choice, try something I knew would not work long term and would hurt like hell (rubber banding again) or drastic surgery which may not work and I could be incontinent!
I figured, if it works, then I'll gladly pay the money to go to NATCM. If it doesn't work, then I've tried all possible avenues before going to back to western medicine which is KNOWN to not work. In fact, I don't think I've ever read a review that said banding or surgery has completely cured someone long term.
So off to NATCM I went, heres a run down:
NATCM TREATMENT
Days 1-3
First initial consultation with Dr Chen, had a quick look and said with the medicine no problem the hem will be cured and will fall off.
Put some ointment on a swab up my butt and I was on my way. This was the same for the next few days.
I believe it was the lady Dr Ivy who treated me on the following days, took a few mins to prepare and insert the ointment.
I didn't notice any improvement at all, in fact it started to bleed again a few days in. At this point I was getting impatient and frustrated, 3 days into the treatment and it seemed to be getting worse.
Day 4
Had my first treatment of the special medicine by Dr Chen. This is where they use an instrument to check internally I think its a proctoscope. I think they also used a needle for acupuncture or for injecting into the internal hem, I'm not really sure they don't tell you much and its hard to get info out of the DRs.
All I know is that afterwards I felt like someone had rammed a steal cap boot up my butt. The real pain kicked in an hour or two later, it was debilitating, I could hardly move for a good few hours. So if you go, definitely don't plan any work that day and make sure you take the pain killers.
Days 5-9
What I did notice pretty much within 1 or 2 days, the main hem no longer prolapsed during bowel movement. I was quite shocked at how quickly it had gone from stage 3 to stage 2.
What I did notice though, is that the tissue surrounding the anus was very swollen and did prolapse (as it did before). This was quite tender as I feel like the special medicine tightens everything up thus pulling the hem back inside. The good thing is the surround tissue would then go back inside after a few mins by itself (or I could push it back in straight away.)
The skin tag had noticeably reduced but it was around this time that the small thrombosed external hemorrhoid did flare up briefly, but within a day it was gone.
The rest of this period was the standard ointment on a cloth inserted daily by Dr Ivy. I was feeling much better about the effectiveness of the treatment although still concerned with the swelling and cautiously optimistic.
Day 10
I had my second round of 'special' treatment which was the same as the first round, very painful afterwards.
Day 11-14
Business as usual, go in for 5 mins and they insert the ointment.
It was during this period where the surrounding tissue stopped prolapsing and I had my first pain free, non-prolapsing bowel movement in nearly 10 years!!!
It was a surreal feeling, I had forgotten what it was like to poop like a normal healthy person.
Examining the anal area, it looked like everything has been tightened up from the rectum, like all the loose tissue has been pulled up back inside. It actually looked like a normal sphincter. The skin tag had been greatly reduced although it was still there but very small.
In addition to my first prolapse free bowel movement, I also dared to venture out to the Toronto Zoo for the day (a day event like that is something I would usually dread knowing how many times I would have to find a toilet to push my butt back inside me and soak up any blood with toilet paper).
I was amazed that I had a hemmy event free day, no discomfort, no prolapse, it was amazing and a strange feeling.
So I was obviously feeling great that I had improved so much in two weeks. However, I was still only cautiously optimistic as I had gone through this before with the banding, which only fixed it in the short term.
In terms of the hemmy and polyps falling off, I think I may have seen something in the toilet but I could not be sure and I didn't have gloves to investigate in detail. I may have got some small spots of blood but thats it.
While I was extremely happy with the progress, I did not have a final internal inspection to confirm that indeed the hemmy and polyps where gone. I expected to have a final 'special' medicine day to inspect the site and kill any remaining hem but that didn't happen.
I believe this is because the site is very tender and raw the doctor does not want to rupture anything by sticking the instrument inside.
I asked if I should get an internal check from my doctor when I get home to see how things had gone and she also advised not doing that for a few months to allow the site to heal.
So I left feeling 1000 times better than when I went in but I still was not convinced that it was completely gone.
I was told to use the black cream (which is actually brown) everyday for another week and then every two days for a week after that. Any longer and it would make the area to tender and raw and could lead to a fissure.
After treatment:
1 week
Continued using the black cream every day, however towards the end of the week I could feel that something wasn't quite right, I could feel a bit of pressure slowly building up down there and I was pretty sure the hem was coming back.
2nd week
started using every 2 days. At this point, I realized my hem never went away as it started to prolapse during bowel movement and would pop straight back in after.
So I knew now that the treatment had not fixed the problem, it had just greatly reduced it from a stage 3 to a stage 1, and after 2 weeks it had become a stage 2 again.
Needless to say I was devastated that it had come back (or had never fully gone). The time, effort and costs involved going to NATCM from overseas is a lot plus realizing the hemmy life was not over.
I contacted NATCM and they sent me a bunch of different creams to use but they only soothed the problem, the hem was still there and didn't subside.
I sent more photos and they offered to retreat it for free as per their guarantee. Dr Chen asked me to come back for 3-4 days to get rid of it...I figured there is no way this is enough time to fix it so not sure why he would suggest that.
I figured I would need at least another 2 weeks like last time. Being a huge commitment in time and money to get back to Toronto for two weeks, I managed the hemmy for the good part of a year but when it started bleeding again I decided I need to try one more time at NATCM.
2ND Round Treatment:
So a year later, here I am again in Toronto flying in from the US going through my second round of treatment.
Same routine as before, first few days of black cream with Dr Ivy which did not help at all ( maybe it prepares the area?)
Then after 5 days a 'special' medicine day with Dr Chen with internal examination. The hemmy and polyps were of course still there. Dr Chen advised me to get a colonoscopy when I get home to remove the polyps, I have researched this and seems like a very common and effective procedure for the polyps so that's fine.
As for the hemmy, he did his 'special' thing which afterwards hurt like hell and then like magic the next day there was no prolapsing hem. The the surrounding anal tissue is swollen and prolapses for a few mins after bowel movement.
The first 1 1/2 weeks was uncomfortable and quite sore but now it is fine.
I am now on my 10th day here and I thought I would get another 'special' medicine day but Dr Chen says I should only have it done once a month otherwise it gets too tender and could cause a fissure. Not sure why I got two sessions last time but not this time, when I brought this up it was dismissed. He says the swollen prolapse is just skin and 'don't worry about it'. Well I do worry when my ass comes out of my body...
So I'm basically in the same position as last time, the treatment has dramatically improved things, but I'm sure the hem is still there as stage 1 and within a month will start to grow and become stage 2 again.
I really really want this to work but I'm not convinced especially with just one treatment of the special stuff.
My thoughts so far:
I find it very difficult communicating with the doctors, Dr Ivy while she is very nice she speaks very little English apart from 'fall off', 'medicine', 'don't worry', 'plenty of time' and 'its ok'.
Dr Chen I find very dismissive, impatient and I honestly don't think he cares about my case. While his English is much better, I still get the most common answers to my questions as 'fall off', 'medicine', 'don't worry', 'plenty of time' and 'don't sit for too long'.
I told him today that while inserting the medicine on my own (I had a bowel movement and had to put the cotton ball with medicine up there afterwards) I could feel the large hemmy was still there. He actually laughed and told me I shouldn't be feeling it or putting my finger up there....well how else am I suppose to get the cotton ball up there? I get it, its a tender healing area and shouldn't be prodded. But my point was that the large hemmy is still there and I don't think it's going to fall off as I went through this same problem last time. I know that the black cream is not going to fix it thus I was expecting the special medicine. He didn't seem to care that the hem was still there in any case.
Every time I have seen Dr Chen, I barely have time to pull my pants up before he is out the door.
Maybe he knows that since I'm a reoccurring case, then most likely the treatment is not going to work again and he doesn't want to waste his time on me. Either way, he has not given me any explanation as to why it didn't work the first time or how we are going to get rid of it this time apart from 'don't sit for too long'.
The other male doctor there I find to be the most engaging, while communication is still difficult he actually sits and listens and answers my questions as best he can, offers advice (such as doing kegals to promote blood flow and healing to the area and to strengthen the sphincter to help prevent tissue prolapse) and I feel like he actually cares when he asks me how things are going.
So basically it looks like my second round of 2 week treatment, will have only 1 'special medicine' day with the rest of the time coming in for 2 min ointment applications.
So really, I could have just applied the ointment at home for a week, flow in for just 1 or 2 days for the special treatment. Instead of wasting my time and money on 2 weeks accommodation. I understand this will not be the same fore everyone as each case is different.
SUMMARY:
The 2 week NATCM treatment for me was a huge improvement in the short term. I went from a stage 3 internal prolapse hem with occasional bleeding to a stage 1 literally overnight. My first un-prolapsed bowel movement in 10 years was a god send.
Unfortunately, my first round of treatment the hem did not dissappear completely and within a few weeks it had come back as a stage 2.
I find it difficult to get any information out of the doctors due to language barrier
If you have a case like mine, you could probably just fly or drive in once a week or month for a 'special' treatment and apply the normal black medicine at home. Maybe ask the doctors about that so you don't have to spend the time and money on accommodation.
Do I recommend NATCM? Absolutely YES.
But realize, just like Western medicine (banding, surgery etc), it doesn't work for everyone. And as much marketing as NATCM and some people will spin (98% success rate or whatever etc) we will never be able to validate these figures and really shouldn't trust them. We can only gauge by what people say on these forums or if you a lucky to know someone who has been there personally. Taking this forum into consideration, I see a number of people who it didn't work for and also many who it did.
Anyone in our situation is looking for anything that will work, whether it be TCM or Western.
I do feel bad for the gentleman who tried NATCM and came away even worse (by the way how did your surgery go?). To be honest the first time I went to NATCM I didn't care if there were any side effects, I just wanted to be rid of the problem.
2nd time around for me it did actually occur to me that there is that risk of negative reaction to the medicine. It definitely would be nice to know exactly what is in the medicine and a detailed understanding of the procedures and how the medicine works. That way you could make more of an informed decision about if this is right for your body. Luckily so far I have no side effects.
If this second round of treatment doesn't work for me, then maybe I'll give the area a bit of time to heal then I'll fly in a few more times for the 'special' medicine.
As someone mentioned, after so many years of stretching and prolapsing the tissue becomes weak and elastic, so maybe that's why it doesn't heal or is so prone to coming back.
If that doesn't work then I know I have tried everything I can and it will be back to Western banding (I know this doesn't work) or worse case scenario surgery.
I believe one of the previous posters did get their money back so I will ask the same if it doesn't work for me this time around.
I know many people of this forum are in much much worse condition that I am, knowing the pain and negative impact on my life that I have suffered, I can only imagine what some of you are feeling. I truly hope we find a solution either through NATCM or elsewhere.
And if you do find any other solutions please share!
Anyway, this forum is my only real outlet to read and share about this condition with people who understand my pain thus the long essay. I'll be happy to answer any questions about my experience.
Final note, as many people on this forum have noted, lifestyle and diet can play a huge part in hems. While hems obviously occur even with good lifestyle and diet, with bad lifestyle and diet they are almost surely going to occur.
Good luck everyone, hopefully once day we will all be free of this!
What's your status today? Did the problem finally resolve completely?
Thanks.
Could you please post an update on how did it go with the second round of treatment?
I went to NATCM, had the treatment, but no relief at all? I went back to them and they reassured that the hems are gone (fall off), but when I went back to my doc. he said they are still there... and it really bothers me. Naturally, the trust is not there anymore, but wanted to see of you had better results the second round and there may be hope for me too...
Hello. I just found your posting, I'm interested - I have this problem, I had surgery and problem cam back, pleas help with information. Marian
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I had hemorrhoid surgery in 2014, I have them back.
I would like to have no surgery help - remove them.
I'm 62 y/o male in Edmonton AB. Please help - Marian.
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